Primer - what did i miss? *slight spoiler within*

[sonaboy]

so - i must have missed a very important clue, because for a minute, i thought one guy killed his girlfriend's father.

but then i started wondering - no, he killed his co-conspirator.

then the whole movie spun out of control (in a good way) and then it was over before i knew who had the advantage.

what the hell happened?

goddamn i love good sci fi, but if you BLINK, you get lost in the shuffle on this one.

so i'm going to watch it again tonight, but i just wanted to get someone else's opinion on what they thought took place.

[DonLewis]

I have NO IDEA what happened in PRIMER...but I loved it! I finally saw it over the weekend on DVD. There's some great discussion on the IMDB board for the film as well as on the official website...but it doesn't really help clear things up.

I especially liked how Carruth had like, 5 people talking at once and other scenes had loud background noise so it was intentionally hard to decipher what the hell was going on. Great movie.

[GiGi]

Oh, awesome. I can't wait to see "Primer" as well and didn't realize it was out on DVD~! I followed it in the beginning when it broke onto the scene...a movie in the can for less than 8 grand? Deserves a look for that alone.

[sonaboy]

Oh, awesome. I can't wait to see "Primer" as well and didn't realize it was out on DVD~! I followed it in the beginning when it broke onto the scene...a movie in the can for less than 8 grand? Deserves a look for that alone.


Less than 8 grand shot ON FILM - no digicameras used.

THAT"S EFFICIENCY. 16mm blown up to 35mm to give it that grainy grit like the cool 70's thrillers.

this guy deserves another project to develop a new story even further. can't wait.

[DonLewis]

Yeah...under $8 GRAND to make a film on film is simply astounding. Even if you get lost during PRIMER, it's a great way to see what can be done with some ingenuity and a great story.

I think someone offered Carruth a new directing deal...but I can't remember who or what the project was.

[GiGi]

Awesome. He seems like a very dedicated and talented guy. I chatted with him briefly on his chat board, some film questions and he was gracious enough to give opinions. It really is a cinderella story...him winning the grand jury at Sundance, etc. Hope he goes far.

[AmaiStina]

i happened to have seen & reviewed the film weeks before Carruth found out his film made it into Sundance.

i dont know how different the plot is from the version i saw & the version that is rentable at Blockbuster, but the director wasnt too keen that my review brought up weaknesses* in the plot ....

not that he didnt like my reaction to his film but that given its foreseeable hype due to Sundance, all press of the film would ideally be free of any discussion of the plot other than "sci-fi slant & something mysterious going on."

i had Eric pull my review off the site until the director could get me a "more finalized" version of the film. i never got to see the finalized version....i could rent it & check it out.

)()()()()()(

*they werent weaknesses per se, more like frustrations.

[sonaboy]

i happened to have seen & reviewed the film weeks before Carruth found out his film made it into Sundance.

i dont know how different the plot is from the version i saw & the version that is rentable at Blockbuster, but the director wasnt too keen that my review brought up weaknesses in the plot ....

not that he didnt like my reaction to his film but that given its foreseeable hype due to Sundance, all press of the film would ideally be free of any discussion of the plot other than "sci-fi slant & something mysterious going on."

i had Eric pull my review off the site until the director could get me a "more finalized" version of the film. i never got to see the finalized version....i could rent it & check it out.

so what was the big plot hole according to you?

you also have to realize that any film that deals with time travel has an unrecoverable paradox, yes?

there was also another element introduced about 2/3rds of the way through the film known as "The Failsafe Device" which insinuated that the story was much more sinister than the viewer had previously thought (at least me) - and completely changed the first few scenes of how Abe revealed what was going on - like *SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER*






*SPOILER*




basically we don't know if both of the humans going through are copies, or just Abe is a copy OR Abe set the failsafe to go back ALL THE WAY to the first day should something go wrong. Which is why we see Abe kind of faint when he goes back to that first conversation and it's not going as planned and he realizes his failsafe device was either sabotaged, or there actually IS NO GOING BACK. this idea was kind of hinted at during that 3 second delay conversation at the basketball court where the "script" wasn't 100% accurate because Aaron missed the shot.

or did Abe's copy make the failsafe machine and set it to go back to day 1?
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))





*end spoiler*

anyway - there's a lot of variables, and i don't necessarily consider them plot holes, since you're dealing with causality and a paradox in the first place. they're simply additional elements that can enhance the viewer's experience and make them think about what they just saw more.
i watched it with three people, and we all came up with different ideas about what we just witnessed.

i tried to watch it again last night after a particularly long day at work with not much sleep the night before, and i couldn't finish before i snoozed.
i'll try again tonight.
but i did see about the first 35 minutes of the film last night, and noticed a few other things i missed in the first pass - which makes me like this movie even more now.

[AmaiStina]

so what was the big plot hole according to you?

here is my unpublished review. i gave it 3.5 stars too...

Some girls have a babysitter’s club; some guys have a fight club. Aaron (Shane Carruth), Abe (David Sullivan), Robert (Casey Gooden), and Phillip (Anand Upadhyaya) have a physics club. Shane Carruth’s film “Primer” follows these four engineers as they meet in Aaron’s garage to put their knowledge of electric currents, magnetic fields, and heat mechanics to work.

As with any club, outsiders usually do not and cannot fully understand the topics of discussion at the meetings. Moreover, the characters interact with each other as if they’re deliberately keeping something to themselves. The result is that you, the viewer, will feel unable to follow or appreciate the characters’ experiences. “Primer” wedges you in the middle of those situations. You can see what the characters see and what the camera records, but things are still murky.

The majority of the film concentrates on Abe and Aaron and how an idea of theirs dramatically changes their lives. In terms of narrative, you know for a fact that these two guys are on to something big and won’t tell Robert or Phillip about it. Abe and Aaron make a contraption that, on a small scale, can generate the accelerated growth of a fungus protein. On a large scale, the box seems to allow one to travel back in time and spawn a clone.

There is a scene twenty-nine minutes into the film where Aaron and Abe try to make sense of their creation. Abe explains “everything we’re putting in that box becomes ungrounded…not tethered. We’re blocking whatever keeps them moving forward, so they flip-flop.” Abe’s words make very little sense until the film ends, but even then it’s still difficult to comprehend genuinely the meaning of the apparatus. The frustration of not totally “getting” the film’s implications is simultaneously challenging and irksome.

Unlike films such as “Memento” (Christopher Nolan), 2000) or “Fight Club” (David Fincher, 1999), where questions can eventually be answered via intense contemplation or debate, “Primer” presents knots that cannot be so easily unraveled. For instance, what exactly does the box do? What is this “double” that Abe and Aaron mention? From what the second half of the film suggests, Abe and Aaron can turn back the clock but in the process they somehow produce a second self. The inability to grasp the film fully is by no means a fault. It actually makes you pay more attention to what the characters say as well as the space around them.

Carruth’s film is mesmerizing in its content but also in its design. There’s an attractive sterility to the environment and several of the shots are reminiscent of those IBM ads typically found in Time and Newsweek. “Primer” is like a math problem that you got wrong but you can’t figure out why. No matter how many times you recheck your adding and multiplying and substituting-for-the-x, it still doesn’t work. With more determination, though, you could probably solve the equation. You’ll be part of Abe and Aaron’s club and all your questions will have answers.

[DonLewis]

I think that's a very accurate and fair review...you shouldn't have had it yanked. As sonaboy said, there's just so many variables I think that you can't help but be confused. In fact, I think Carruth was intentionally being confusing and I find it odd he would have an adverse reaction to achieving that effect.

I'm always confused by time travel flicks...even the BACK TO THE FUTURE trilogy gives me a headache if I try to figure it out. :confused:

[AmaiStina]

I think that's a very accurate and fair review...you shouldn't have had it yanked. As sonaboy said, there's just so many variables I think that you can't help but be confused. In fact, I think Carruth was intentionally being confusing and I find it odd he would have an adverse reaction to achieving that effect.

I'm always confused by time travel flicks...even the BACK TO THE FUTURE trilogy gives me a headache if I try to figure it out. :confused:

his film was going to premiere at sundance. he (understandably) didnt want people to go into the film knowing anything beyond "four guys in a garage. dun dun dun. they make something woooooo that will change their lives forever hahahaha evil laugh." and at the time, it didnt occur to me to have the review posted a month or two after sundance.

[sonaboy]

well, okay - fair enough there. but i think one of the great things about how Carruth tells the story is - he puts the audience on the level of the scientists where neither they, nor the viewer quite understands what they're experiencing.
This is why i think many people enjoy this movie so much.
There's no guy in a white coat that walks in, defines exactly what you just saw or they said that allows us (and them) to move on to the next reveal.

after i watched the film, i went to the site and read an interview where Carruth described why he designed the film the way he did, and he indicated that throughout history, the secondary properties of an invention are actually the profound, life-changing things that many times the inventors don't even notice themselves. That this type of situation requires the inventors to re-discover what they just did and what that means. this movie is effective because the viewer is there for the second discovery that's profound, but like the scientists, the viewer also has to decode why things are going awry. and just like the scientists do in the story, they at first have fun with it, then become unnerved by what they think they've actually done and what this could mean to the rest of humanity, but they still might not understand what just happened or how to stop it.

and the second great thing about this movie is, there's no "hollywood finish" where everyone involved does the right thing and cleans up their mess to set things right. one of them thinks it's too late (and he's most likely right) and the other simply starts it all over again, perhaps spawning more carnage on an uncontrollable scale.
to quote Stewie from Family Guy - "How deliciously EEEEVIL."

:D

[declavier]

then the whole movie spun out of control (in a good way) and then it was over before i knew who had the advantage.

what the hell happened?



This film is deep, very deep. I would go so far as to say that, at its heart, it is spiritual in nature. After all, time-travel is ultimately aborted in favour of a kind of salvation (the saving of a life).

In terms of the principle at work in the film, I refer to a simple analogy. At work, I require a knife and texta. In the event that I forget to bring my knife and texta with me to work, I have a spare of each in the car. For the spares to be there, in my car, I have to put them there. When it happens that I have forgotten my tools, entering the car is like entering a time-loop: for a period of time I have a knife and texta again. When my shift is over, I put the spare tools back in the car and when I get home, it is as if I had never forgotten the tools that are there, at home (leaving the spares free to talk about what to do now... but I digress). So it is in the film that an additional pair of time-travelers are temporarily introduced in order to circumnavigate a problem, which in all correctness "never happened" once the conclusion is reached. Of course, it's much more artful than that.

In terms of the chronology of the film, I now simply associate the events that happen later in the film with the "clues" that appear earlier.

The voice recording is the by-product of the successful prevention of a shooting (Aaron speaking to himself at an earlier point in time, priming himself for what he must do to prevent the shooting). Aaron's bloody ear is the by-product of being clubbed by Abe after successfully preventing the shooting. The mobile phone ear-plug connection is a by-product of the communication that Aaron had with Abe before he got it right (and was clubbed). The writings are a by-product of Abe and Aaron getting close to getting the prevention of the shooting right. The repetitions are a by-product of the writing the must be done to get close to getting it right. The discovery of the body outside the house is a by-product of the repetitions that get close to getting the prevention of the shooting right. The observation of the person with the three-day growth is a by-product of a drugged Aaron being brought to the scene of the prevention of the shooting. The drugging of Aaron is a by-product of Aaron's need to get perspective on the prevention of the shooting. The drugginess of Aaron after his first time-trip is a by-product of the drugs Aaron gives himself. The two Abes are a by-product of the first time-trip Abe takes. The protein on the object is a by-product of the time that has elapsed in the anti-gravitational field that is created.

EDIT: Note to self: I need to call the film clever at some point in the future.

In all, I would say that the film is a film that requires you to differentiate between the chronology of time travel and the "principle" of time-travel (while being prepared to remember the past relative to the desired conclusion)... and that makes the film awfully clever! I hope this helps.

[sonaboy]

that's a GREAT reading of the film.

but looking at all this - what was the purpose of the "failsafe device?"

was this introduced to allow abe (whether original, or copy) to bypass the entire process you just described, in case any further variables happen and aaron and abe 1&2 end up dead and discovered?

that's what that dead body outside the storage facility meant to me - that someone had been onto them and was beginning to discover what abe and aaron were hiding, thus introducing a new variable that was almost as dangerous as the shooting incident.

i gotta go buy this thing on DVD and watch it a few more times.

[sonaboy]

whoa!! :eek:
look what i just found on another film site's forum!

Primer Timelines Illustrated (http://neuwanstein.fw.hu/primer_timeline.html)

NICE!

even more complicated than i at first thought - this movie kicks ass.

[declavier]

that's a GREAT reading of the film.

but looking at all this - what was the purpose of the "failsafe device?"

[...]

i gotta go buy this thing on DVD and watch it a few more times.

Yeah, uh, I got to admit I still scratch my head a few times when I think about this. I only watched it once, so its definately overwhelming.

I think the failsafe device - which is a time-machine inside a time-machine or something - probably caused the original pair to drop back earlier in time in every instance where the later Abe and Aaron get it wrong... thus aborting that repetition and allowing them to start again with new records. The scene at the airport is the culmination of their efforts, which I interpret to mean that they didn't need to use the failsafe in that instance. That's where Abe talks about debunking the time-machine and Aaron talks about going abroad.

PS. The link above is probably good but the whole picture doesn't load. Thanks though.

[sonaboy]

..

doesn't load all the way?

well...try the raw picture, without the web frame around it:

http://www.freeweb.hu/neuwanstein/primer_timeline.jpg

[declavier]

..

doesn't load all the way?

well...try the raw picture, without the web frame around it:

http://www.freeweb.hu/neuwanstein/primer_timeline.jpg

Uh, I tried that as well: I only get the top section. Does it cover everything?

[Rory L. Aronsky]

See if your browser has scroll bars after the image loads. But yeah, it's detailed. Lots detailed.